Posts by Disillusioned JW

14

New WTS Ministry Textbook

by artful in

greetings.. since this is my first post to this board, i would like to submit some interesting information from a new watchtower society (wts) ministry textbook.

this new publication is to replace the existing "school guidebook" and is to be used by all jws starting in 2003. .

please excuse me if this information has already been posted elsewhere on the board but i think that an interesting discussion is to be had here.

The answer about most of the children in the illustrations of a post-Armageddon paradise is that they are the children are of JW parents who survived through the great tribulation and the battle of Armageddon and never died ('millions now living will never die' doctrine) and thus were not resurrected and thus were not barred from marriage and from producing children. But yes there is also idea that many children will be resurrected during the 1,000 year period of Christ's reign in which Satan is in the abyss.

34

Re: Use of revised New World Translation

by pixel in

this letter will be read this week.

you read it here first!.

re: use of revised new world translation .

Disillusioned JW

Besides the exclusion of John 8:1-11 there are some other changes incorporated in the 2013 NWT which I dislike, but at the moment my impression is that overall the translation is an improvement.

36

Converted Greek Philosopher Explains Christianity in 125 AD

by Sea Breeze in

i ran across a pretty early treatise.

we were all taught that "real" christianity was lost to history and was only restored once russell and then rutherford restored it so that the wt could be appointed as god's "mouthpiece".

but, aristides wrote to the emperor hadrian and gave a pretty good synopsis of core christian belief in 125 ad.

Disillusioned JW

At the moment I am not sure that Hugh J. Schonfield was the source for my information about Hellenistic Jews making pious frauds to promote Judaism, but I did read it in some scholarly book. I read that prior to the start of Christianity the Jews had been very successful in converting Greeks and others to Judaism (though in many cases not becoming full proselytes). I read that at one point 10% of the population of the Roman empire was of the Jewish religion! I read that many Jews added comments to pagan Greek books of various kinds (or to copies of those books made by Jews) that the teachings of Judaism were superior to many of the teachings of the Greeks. I don't recall which specific book it was in which I read about those things however.

34

Re: Use of revised New World Translation

by pixel in

this letter will be read this week.

you read it here first!.

re: use of revised new world translation .

Disillusioned JW

For an additional thought of mine about the 2013 NWT see my post at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5659859239305216/why-did-lloyd-evans-say-one-his-latest-video?page=3#/6030286377713664 . I am however disappointed to read that the 2013 NWT does not contain John 8:1-11 at all. I will be keeping my 1984 leather NWT and my 1984 Reference edition of the NWT.

29

Why did Lloyd Evans say in one of his latest video

by mickbobcat in

so i was watching an evans video he just put out where he was interviewing a man about how the cult treated his daughter who was rapped as a criminal.

the man said his wife's first experience with an apostate site was here.

i could tell by the look on his face he did not like that site and then could not help himself and said that he could not recommend going to this site.

Disillusioned JW

It sounds like the 2013 NWT has a number of improvements in its revision of the 1984 NWT. I am thus now considering obtaining a copy of one, even though thus far I have not obtained any WT publications having a copyright date later than the year 2010. I became an outright positive/strong atheist in the year 2010 or 2011.

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

Rocketman123, just as millions of JWs today believe that the New World order (in which the Earth will be transformed into a paradise) administered by Jesus Christ (from heaven) will be here very soon and thus they believe millions alive today will never die, Rutherford likely believed much of what Russell taught would happen due to Christ's reign. Rutherford's idea of millions now living will never die is based upon Russell's teaching that Christ's kingdom will start to have full sway immediately after October 1914. As as a result, Rutherford like other people who converted to the religion of the WT, likely was sincere about millions never dying. If he was sincere then he was not a charlatan (just deluded). Dictionaries define charlatan as 'a person who pretends to have skills or knowledge that they do not have'. If a person was sincere in what they were saying then they were not putting on a pretense and thus were not charlatans, even if they were incorrect in what they were saying.

When I was an active JW (including while I was a regular pioneer and while I was a ministerial servant) and especially prior to the 1990 I thought I might live forever without ever dying and I hoped I would never die. I was thus not a charlatan for proclaiming to others the WT teachings about the prospect of living forever without ever experiencing death (which are based upon biblical teachings attributed to Jesus Christ). [See John 11:25-26 and Matthew 5:3, 10, 12 for examples along with Daniel 2:34-35, 44-45, Daniel 7:13-14, 21-22, 27, and Daniel 12:1-2, as well as Revelation 20:1-3 and Revelation 21:1-4 .]

Before I became baptized as a JW my JW father taught me (and my sister) the core WT doctrines by studying with us the WT book (from 1968) called The Truth that leads to Eternal Life (that book made the The Guinness Book of Records regarding the number of copies distributed and/or printed) and by studying some other WT books (including the 1958 WT book called From Paradise Lost to Paradise Regained, which I and my sister studied while we were very young children). I believed in what those books taught. After I became baptized (at under the age of 18 years) the WT came out with the book (in 1982) called You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth. I studied that book thoroughly in the congregation meetings and I believed in it. I later (while a regular pioneer) conducted in-home Bible studies (with non-JWs) using it as the textbook. I thus don't have difficulty in believing that Rutherford was sincere in teaching that 'millions now living will never die'. I also believe that Russell was sincere in what he taught in his WT books.

29

Why did Lloyd Evans say in one of his latest video

by mickbobcat in

so i was watching an evans video he just put out where he was interviewing a man about how the cult treated his daughter who was rapped as a criminal.

the man said his wife's first experience with an apostate site was here.

i could tell by the look on his face he did not like that site and then could not help himself and said that he could not recommend going to this site.

Disillusioned JW

Bill Covert, are you saying (in part) that the 2013 NWT translation of Lev. 5:1 is correct and an improvement of the 1984 NWT (at least for USA English readers) and that in the Sept. 1, 1987 WT article the WT correctly said what the verse meant someone calling down curses (in the name of Jehovah/YHWH) against those who witness a crime but don't report it to legal authorities, but that the WT misapplied it in the Sept. 1, 1987 WT article about a situation of a JW obtaining an abortion?

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

Hey minimus, it looks like you 17 years ago were not convinced that there was any evidence that Rutherford did anything immoral. In that regard my view is the same as yours back then. For example on the page at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/77915/rutherford-exposed-story-berta-bonnie?page=2 you said the following.

'There were quite a few interesting tidbits about the 3. But other than a titillating review of hearsay, I don't think anyone's nailed Rutherford. Do I think he was everything that you've suggested here? Yup. But I don't see clear "evidence" of anything immoral that Rutherford did. BTW, YOU are one who is always looking for facts and evidence. I hope that you can see that your "expose' " doesn't really prove anything.'

I guess you later changed your views about whether there was evidence of Rutherford doing something immoral and maybe I will have the same view as well after I do more research.

Folks, at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/77915/rutherford-exposed-story-berta-bonnie?page=5 amac 17 years ago wrote the following.

'This is very interesting, I hope research can find more evidence to back this up. It seems very believable to me, but I have to agree with Minimus and Undercover, it seems "unusable" as proof to current JW's.

It's a shame to see attacks on someone being skeptical of serious accusations. Skepticism should be welcomed when trying to decipher the truth about something. It's a shame when it is taken personally.

Minimus is correct...hearsay from a "friend" who was an elder and was confessed to and was also privy to information between Knorr and the subject is LIGHT YEARS away from a quote from a named elder who can be verified as serving at the time. I understand the need to possibly keep his name confidential, but skepticism should be understood as well.

Thank you Farkel for starting this thread and putting the information together.'

Maybe as I read more of the topic thread that the above two comments (from 17 years ago) were posted in I will change my views about Rutherford.

However, in some of Rutherford's books I have noticed statements by him that seem to be hints of him admitting having done certain things (or of him allowing himself to do certain things in the future). Such things include the following: authorizing the use of violent force (but not involving guns) at a WT convention against protestors; of saying that laws against prohibition (of alcoholic drinks) are not enforced by police upon the wealthy but only upon the poor and that laws prohibiting consumption of alcoholic drinks are unjust; saying the definition of a lying is the act of saying an intended falsehood to someone who is entitled to know the truth (such a definition allows one to decide that is fine to tell falsehoods to certain people and government agencies [ones deemed not to deserve to know the truth] - a practice that the WT legal team currently does in some child abuse court cases); saying that a person is entitled to kill another person if the person that would be killed would otherwise have murdered oneself or someone in one's household (he uses as support the example in the Bible of Moses striking dead an Egyptian who was attacking a Hebrew and says Moses was not guilty of any wrong in doing so).

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

minimus, the main point of my long post is that I find it hard to believe many of the charges made against Rutherford on this site (such as him being abusive and guilty of charlatanism). I also mention he appears to me to have been sincere in much of what he wrote because many people on this site claim he was guilty of charlatanism, but that I see little evidence of him being guilty of charlatanism. I see (especially from the point of view of atheism being true) that he had many false teachings, but I also see he had many true teachings. At some point when I have access to a computer system which enables me to watch the videos posted on this site about Rutherford, I will watch them. After I do that maybe I will believe more of the charges that people on this site make against Rutherford.

You said "The Watchtower has disavowed everything he has said", but I don't agree with that. For example, in reading his book called "Enemies" and his book called "Deliverance!" I see numerous teachings in them which are the same as what the WT currently teaches (or least what they taught up till the time I stopped being a believing JW - I haven't read much literature that the WT produced after the year 2007 so I don't know how much their doctrines have changed since then). His extensive criticisms of the Roman Catholic Church in the book "Enemies" seem correct to me (in regards to what the church did and in regards to a number of their teachings not being in harmony with the Bible, but not in regards to Satan controlling the church [since I don't believe Satan exists]).

I also don't care if Rutherford was a drunkard, since to me that in itself is not a big deal. I believe that Rutherford contributed much good by what he wrote (such in exposing false teachings of most religions) and thus any drunkenness he might have had had no bearing on his teaching ability. We all do something what the Bible calls a sin and the Bible claims Jesus said "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" (Matthew 7:1-3 according to the KJV Bible)

I am also annoyed by the extreme extent of the sharp criticisms on this site about the WT (with hardly anything pleasant on this site about the WT and its religion, even though there good things about the WT and its religion) and other matters. Even if all of the accusations are true (and I don't believe all of it is) It is a mostly very unpleasant experience for me to read posts (including ones against liberal politics) on this site. I am considering becoming much more selective about the topic threads I read on this site.

To me a number of posts on this site in their criticisms of the WT (and its NWT Bible and its other literature and its religion) make a number of false assertions. I also notice that many of the people making posts on this site never had been JWs and there appears to be no believing JWs actively making posts on this site. Further, the few believing JWs who have made posts have been bullied into ceasing to post to this site. To me this site is thus extremely unbalanced in its content. I think this site would be extremely unpleasant to virtually all believing JWs (including those with some doubts who are wondering if maybe the JW religion is considerably wrong), and to such an extent that they would quickly leave the site and say the WT is right on warning JWs never to visit apostate/ex-JW internet sites and not to listen (or read) anything apostates/ex-JWs say.

minimus, were you ever a believing baptized JW? My impression is that you never were. If I am correct about that it might explain why it is hard for you to understand my perspective about some of what I posted about Rutherford.

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

Last night I read portions of the 1961 WT book called ' "Let Your Name Be Sanctified" ' and I notice some very interesting comments in chapters 17 and 18 in it about Rutherford. Notice what is said on pages 335 - 336. [See http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/sanctified/sanctified18.html for my source for this material.]

"2 Under threat of being mobbed, the Theocratic Convention of Jehovah's witnesses was held in Detroit, Michigan, July 24-28,1940. Watch Tower President Rutherford was then a very ailing man; yet he featured on the program, delivering the public talk "Religion as a World Remedy — The Evidence in Support Thereof." A year later, on August 6-10, another Theocratic Assembly was held, in St. Louis, Missouri. This presented more hopeful prospects for the witness work in the future. Here 3,903 symbolized their dedication of themselves to God by water baptism, like that of Jesus; and at the public address on "Children of the King," an estimated 115,000 heard the failing president speak. Later that year he took to his bed, as the gloom of World War II thickened, its outcome doubtful.

3 Rutherford now arranged for a feature of the work by means of which great expansion had been gained to be discontinued. He called in the Society's regional and zone servants, in connection with whom stimulating local assemblies had been held. In their place special pioneer Kingdom publishers were appointed for work in different localities in small groups. This arrangement began December 1, 1941. Was the end expected?

4 Rutherford was abed on the Pacific Coast when the United States of America was plunged into World War II Sunday, December 7,1941. Two men of the anointed remnant (one since 1913 and one since 1922) and one of the "other sheep" (since 1934) were summoned from Brooklyn headquar-

ters out to Rutherford's bedside at the home called "Beth-sarim," San Diego, California. On December 24,1941, he gave these three his final instructions. For years he had been hoping to see the faithful prophets, including Elijah and Elisha, resurrected from the dead and installed as Kingdom "princes in all the earth" in God's new world. (Psalm 45:16) But on Thursday, January 8,1942, Rutherford died at seventy-two years of age, as a faithful witness of Jehovah God, completely devoted to the interests of God's kingdom. He had proved himself fearless in support of Jehovah's side of the paramount issue of Universal Domination." [After writing the above I noticed that pages 338-339 of the "Sanctified" book says that an "issue of The Watchtower... "... announced the death of J. F. Rutherford as "a faithful witness, ..." '.]

Notice the book acknowledged Rutherford's "Beth-sarim" home. Notice that regarding Rutherford the book says 'For years he had been hoping to see the faithful prophets, including Elijah and Elisha, resurrected from the dead and installed as Kingdom "princes in all the earth" in God's new world.' From my readings of Rutherford's books I am starting to understand why he said that Christendom worships Satan and the demons. That is partly because in one of Rutherford's book he says the demons are putting thoughts into people's minds and that the people of Christendom are thus unknowingly and unwittingly worshiping Satan and the demons as a result. I started getting the impression that Rutherford believed much (though perhaps not all) of what he wrote in his WT books. My copy of the 1989 copyright edition of of the Encyclopaedia Britannica (on page 525 of Volume 6 of Micropaedia, in the article called "Jehovah's Witnesses", says "The Witnesses ... regard world world powers and political parties as the unwitting allies of Satan. ... Their suspicions of Satan's wiles also extends to religious denominations ...." Furthermore even if Rutherford was drunk at times, even if on many times, in his books he writes coherently and thus to me he does not appear to have been drunk while writing his books.

The author of the book called "Sanctified" said Rutherford hoped to see the faithful prophets resurrected from the dead and the author of the book called "Sanctified" said Rutherford was "... a faithful witness of Jehovah God, completely devoted to the interests of God's kingdom". The Britannica Encyclopaedia (in the 1984 copyright edition, on pages 131-132 of Volume 10) in an article about the Jehovah's Witnesses' religion indicated that Knorr never attended college (for the article said that Franz '... was the first head of the society to have attended college ...") and that Knorr joined "... the Watch Tower shortly after graduation ..." from high school. I thus think it is very possible that Knorr was a true believer in the WT/JW religion. If he was and if he was the author of the "Sanctified" book, then he was probably sincere about what he wrote about Rutherford. Was the author right about what he said about Rutherford in what I have quoted above? I think that is very possible, even if Rutherford was power hungry (and I see evidence that he was) as President of the Watch Tower.

One comment in the "Sanctified" book that suggests that Knorr was not its author (unless he is not humble) is that pages 337-338 of the book refers to Knorr as being a "faithful successor" of Rutherford. But, writing anonymously makes it easier to disguise one's lack of humility. The book seems to be referring to Rutherford (and perhaps including his team along with him) as the Elijah class and Knorr (and perhaps including his team along with him) as the Elisha class, for note what it says on pages 337 - 338. There it says the following.

"The Elijah class was not taken aloft and then dropped to its destruction. No; but it finished with success and in integrity. It left the interests of God's kingdom to a faithful successor who would cling to the commission from God through the anointed Elijah class, just the same as this successor had stuck to the Elijah

class to the end. The carrying out of the Elijah commission kept on without a hitch.

8 The anointed Elisha class undertook the responsibility of carrying out fully the divine commission as symbolized by Elijah's official garment. Five days after Rutherford's death the boards of directors of the Watch Tower corporations for New York and for Pennsylvania held a joint meeting and unanimously elected N. H. Knorr, one of the anointed remnant, to be president of both corporations of the Society. There was grief over the passing of a faithful fellow worker, but there was no interruption of the work for the sentimental purpose of mourning over the dead. The change in personnel did not cripple the work, because this is not a man's organization but God's visible organization on earth."

Page 359 identifies the Elisha class as the then existing "the remnant of Christ's brothers". In this regard see also page 364.

Since the Bible says that Elijah and Elisha were prophets I think it is very revealing that the WT/JW religion refers to the so-called 'anointed remnant' group of the Rutherford era as the Elijah class and the so-called 'anointed remnant' group of the Knorr era as the Elisha class. Such classifications seem at odds with the WT saying the Watch Tower society, its Governing Body, the faithful and discreet slave, and the 'anointed remnant' are not prophets.

Page 367 of the "Sanctification" book makes the following bold statements.

'In the present "time of the end" Christendom will not be the only part of Satan's old world that will suffer execution by "Jehu's sword." The radical, communistic elements who make war upon Christendom and upon Jehovah's witnesses will also be executed at Armageddon along with all the rest of the symbolical "goats." The Elisha class is fully in favor of this annihilation of every one of Jehovah's foes, no matter of what bloc of nations they are today. The Elisha class proclaim this coming destruction of these opposers of Jehovah's universal sovereignty by making known His prophecies on the subject. An example of this occurred in the latter half of 1956 when Jehovah's witnesses, being assembled in conventions, addressed a Resolution to the then Russian Premier, Nikolai Bulganin, calling attention to Communist persecution of Jehovah's witnesses and warning such persecutors of divine retribution. They boldly proclaim that man's salvation from the Communist menace and oppression is only by means of "Jehovah's arrow of salvation," Jehovah's universal war.'

The 'voice' and general theological mindset of Rutherford carried on into the Knorr era and all the way through into the present era of the WT/JW religion.

In writing this post does that make me an apologist for Rutherford, in some respects? Perhaps so, be even if that is the case I am sincere in what I wrote and I believe it was important for me to write it.